Episode #219 – Impact Lab POV –  Improving Volunteer Staff Relations with Corina Sadler 

Tobi Johnson: Welcome everybody to another episode of the Volunteer Nation podcast. I’m your host, Tobi Johnson, and today we’re going to talk about that sticky subject: volunteer and staff relations. It seems like everybody should just get along, but sometimes that doesn’t happen. We have an amazing guest advisor — one of our guest advisors inside the Impact Lab — doing this POV series.

As you’ll recall from some earlier podcast episodes this month or last month, we are doing this POV series to really spotlight the expertise of our guest advisors inside the Impact Lab and to bring some fresh ideas and maybe new ways of thinking about some of those challenges that you are experiencing as a leader of volunteers or as a volunteer‑involving organization. So we’ve got a unique point of view here.

Corina Sadler is with us. Hi, Corina. She’s been working with volunteers for a long time, and you may have seen her on social media. She’s very active. She’s also active in a lot of other things. I’ll introduce her in a minute.

Corina Sadler: Thank you.

Tobi: But this topic of volunteer‑staff relations; it is so essential that our employees and our volunteers work together well. They are on the same team, even though sometimes they don’t think they’re on the same team. Everyone needs to be rowing in the same direction. Otherwise, you get stuck in the middle, you’re not efficient, you’re having conflict that is really unnecessary and unneeded.

In the end, I believe most people really want to do a good job, whether they are an unpaid volunteer or a paid employee. They have joined this cause again, as a volunteer or as an employee. Nobody’s in the nonprofit sector to make a killing. I know I worked 25 years in the sector, and I wasn’t there for the money, I’ll tell you that. But I was there because I loved what I was doing, I loved making a difference, and it was part of my identity. I think that’s the same for both employees and volunteers.

In some respects, maybe they are more alike than different. That doesn’t mean necessarily we’re going to treat volunteers and employees the same way, but we’ve got to do some active bridge building between these two groups so that they can feel comfortable, confident, and actually energized by working together. So that’s what Corina is here to talk about.

Corina Sadler is a CVA who spent her 20‑year career focused on volunteerism in local government and committee work for state and international associations. She enjoys providing volunteer management guidance to nonprofits and municipalities to unite the community through volunteerism. In 2019, Corina received a National Impact Award from the Association of Leaders in Volunteer Engagement (ALIVE) for displaying exemplary leadership in the field. And I can guarantee you she earned that and more. Corina has been a featured speaker on several podcasts — now including the Volunteer Nation podcast- and has trained volunteer managers across the country through virtual and in‑person presentations. She holds numerous certificates in the fields of volunteer and nonprofit management, along with a bachelor’s degree in applied gerontology and nonprofit management from the University of North Texas. She has been a CVA since 2012. Corina, welcome to the pod.

Corina: Thanks so much. I’m super excited to add Volunteer Nation to my list. Finally. It’s a bucket list.

Tobi: I know. And I think I’ve been a CVA since about that time too. Yeah, so we’re proud CVAs; we love being CVAs. Before we even get started, something caught my eye: applied gerontology and volunteer management. So did you first work in senior services, or were you thinking you were going to move into senior services or hospice or some kind of hospital stuff? What were you thinking at that time?

Corina: Yeah, so growing up, I loved the Golden Girls, and I still love the Golden Girls very much. Then as a teen, I began volunteering for the first time. In several of my volunteer opportunities, I was paired with older adults, typically older women, and getting the Golden Girls vibes. Right? So I was loving that.

Then I watched my grandmother’s end‑of‑life journey in a nursing home. That was in my teens as well. So one of the last big places that I volunteered through high school was a senior recreation center. The women there really mentored me. They opened so many doors for me. They took me on a campus tour, a university tour. I mean, above and beyond a mentor, but they showed me a career in aging services at a senior center.

Little did I know that was a career in local government. I really thought, “Well, I don’t want to be a social worker necessarily,” but the university I went to had this gerontology program, the study of aging, working with older adults, and they had nonprofit management, volunteer management. So I did all of that, wondering what I could do with it.

I also interned at an RSVP program near the university, the Retired Senior Volunteer Program. That was really cool to see the pairing of all of this knowledge coming together. I did try a memory care facility and a few different volunteering things. But as a teen at a museum, at the library, at the senior center, working with older adults alongside me was really pivotal in my choice to study that. It’s still a huge part of my passion and where I give as a donor to organizations that serve older adults now.

Tobi: That is so awesome. I don’t know if you know, but we have something in common around this. I used to run a program, worked for six years running a helpline for Medicare beneficiaries across the state of Washington. I started as a trainer of volunteers. I had left another nonprofit job, and I was really interested in becoming a trainer, and I wanted to work with volunteers directly. I would travel around my region in the state of Washington and train older, mostly older adults. I had some intergenerational volunteers, but mostly it was older adults because they were more interested in helping their peers navigate Medicare and other health insurance. They had already been through it themselves, and they knew how complicated it was.

It was such a passion for understanding the details of Medicare and health insurance coverage, which anybody who’s trying to help anybody get on Medicare or Medicaid or long‑term care knows it is really complicated. I had this group of volunteers. It was so complicated that I got to go every month and update them on changes in federal poverty levels, changes in eligibility, updates to programs. I was there leading the charge when Medicare Part D rolled out the prescription drug benefit.

I knew up front and personal; I worked with a lot of older volunteers, and I would tell folks who thought, “Well, older volunteers are really tech‑averse; they struggle with change,”  I said, “Not my experience at all.” All of my volunteers needed to use the computer to look up plans for our beneficiaries. They brought a lifetime of professional experience, their training, their school of hard knocks, their family upbringing, their lifetime of travel. I mean, they bring so much wisdom. There is no need to not want these folks.

Sometimes I think we lean towards “We need to diversify; we need to have intergenerational volunteering; we only have older volunteers” as if it’s something that is a problem. I’m always like, “I don’t think so. You’ve got the wisest and most seasoned people on your team.” What do you think about that?

Corina: Definitely. I mean, I had a call a couple of weeks ago from an older adult volunteer who said, “Corina, don’t they want somebody younger to do this? I’ve been doing this a while, and I’m older now. What do you think?” I was like, “No, age does not equal success in this role” that she has been doing for a long time.

But I also had other volunteers who tell me in retirement, referring to their volunteer opportunity as their anchor day. “This is my anchor day of the week. This is what’s going to get me out of bed, get me rolling, and on to the many other things that they do.” So there are a lot of different perspectives that we hear from older adults.

My mom now has transitioned to retirement, and she’s actually volunteering at the senior center where I volunteered. She was not a Girl Scout, rotary mom; this is not her. And so now she’s having the volunteer experience for the first time. I’m her plus‑one to the recognition this week. I’m really excited to see her shine.

Tobi: Amazing. Full‑circle moment. That is so cool. I love that.

Corina: Yeah.

Tobi: I mean, my aunt, when she was getting ready to retire, she said, “I cannot wait to transition to my second career as a volunteer.” Early in her retirement, she had three different volunteer gigs going. It’s what she did full‑time, volunteer at different organizations. She loved it.

Corina: Yeah. You know, I think this group, the technology, come on, they’re building IBM. These are phenomenal folks in this generation. And the technology, like you said, I experienced the same thing. They’re on iPhones, they’ve got iPads, they’re learning. Most of them are not scared. They see it as a tool, but they also want the human touch, the relationship.

Tobi: Yeah.

Corina: They see it more as a tool versus maybe younger generations who see it as a really crucial part of whatever they’re doing. But I love having our senior volunteers. They are incredible, and they really showcase what service can look like in a professional way, a really organized way. And those that are really active in their own communities doing their own thing; they customize it to where they want. They still like the formal volunteering. They still fit in with the structures and things that we have. They built a lot of those things, and it makes sense still.

Tobi: Yeah, absolutely. Gang, we went off on a bit of a tangent around older volunteers, but the minute I read that, I went, “Wait a minute, we’ve got to talk about this for a minute,” because I knew we probably had similar experiences and perspectives on this. Corina, why do you think volunteerism is important right now in today’s world? At this moment in history, why is it important?

Corina: I feel like so many people are looking for that community, looking for an experience, looking to get offline, right?, and to be with others. That can be a challenge for some. How do we make friends as adults? It’s awkward. It can feel uncomfortable. Creating the spaces for people to be together, who else creates those? Maybe you buy a $10 coffee in your coffee shop. But let’s say you can’t afford that, or you don’t like coffee. Where do you go to have experience with others?

I feel that creating volunteer opportunities- dynamic, diverse opportunities for our volunteers to be members of multiple organizations, to serve in many different ways, is really important for that community to continue to thrive. And we don’t lose folks who are late adopters or just haven’t discovered where they’re going next; we tend to catch them through service.

Tobi: Absolutely. What you just said is so interesting. When we think of life inflection points, when I do training with folks and I’m talking about who you’re looking for as an ideal volunteer, how you’re going to target your messaging, and where you’re going to go to find that person, I say the lowest hanging fruit are people who are in life’s inflection points. Whether they’re transitioning into retirement, or leaving high school for college (that gap summer), or moving into a new community.

Those are inflection points in people’s lives where they are actively looking. Most people understand that community is going to be part of the way that they thrive. Most people know that at a gut level. “When I moved to my new town, I want to meet new people, and the way I might be able to do that is volunteering.” Or as I transition out of retirement; some of my friends will still be working; I won’t be able to hang out with them as much, so I’d like to meet new people.

So I think that is a very interesting service that volunteerism shows or helps. And what you said about community cohesion, there just aren’t very many places nowadays that aren’t monetized in some way where people can just be in community and be in a safe space for the most part. I wouldn’t say everywhere is a safe space necessarily, but where people can feel like, “You know what? This specific cause, we’re all in it together. It doesn’t matter how we vote outside of what we do here, or what we believe outside. We all believe inside this volunteering space that’s been created that the same thing, that kids need mentors, or older people need social time, or this community needs better nutrition, or whatever it is.” So it’s a place for that to happen.

Let’s switch gears for a minute and talk about what we’re really here to talk about. We’ve been on a tangent here, folks, so I’m glad you’re all being patient with us. Let’s talk about improving volunteer and staff relationships. What belief do you hold about volunteer‑staff relations that most people in this field tend to get wrong — myths or misunderstandings about?

Corina: Well, I give kudos to everyone that’s trying something, right? I see things happening. That is awesome. Any investment in this subject, staff and volunteer relations, is a worthy attempt: a pilot, a trial, doing something. Sometimes I feel like, this might be coming from leadership, there’s an assumption that it’s a “set it and forget it” kind of thing. People know how to work together, or we hire great staff; they can figure it out working with volunteers. It’s no different than working with our clients, working with the public. Or, “We gave them a 30‑minute tutorial last year. That’s good enough. Why do we need to do it again?”

Some of that mentality, a lot of assumptions about how comfortable people are engaging with volunteers, and then under that leadership, assuming that’s correct for my organization. Having staff development days where a lot of staff come together and there’s no content about volunteer engagement, volunteer management — to be able to voice, to raise your hand and say, “Hey, I think there needs to be some of this content in our staff development day.” That’s something I don’t always see our leaders of volunteers being comfortable doing. But I think they have to get comfortable saying, “We need this,” especially if that “set it and forget it” mentality is pervasive in the organization.

Tobi: Yeah, I mean, I think some people are supervising volunteers or leading volunteers or partnering with volunteers, and they don’t supervise anybody else. To assume, and I always say, leading volunteers is in some respects harder than leading staff because there’s more wiggle room. You don’t see them every day. There’s not just on‑the‑job learning that you would expect from an employee, sink or swim, that doesn’t work with volunteers, and volunteers can vote with their feet anytime they want.

The type of leadership skill and the ability to partner with somebody and help them feel good about what they’re doing, give them positive confirming feedback as well as corrective feedback, championing them; all those things are not natural‑born skills in everybody. I feel like we assume that because they’re volunteers, it’s just going to be an easier leadership job. I’m always like, “Heck no, it’s not. It’s harder.”

So what happens? Why is this? Let me get to this question. As you think of your own development, you’ve been working in your municipality for a long time. What in your mind has changed about volunteer‑staff relations over the years? When you went into it early on, when you were younger and newer to the field, has there been some kind of evolution in your thinking?

Corina: Yeah, I think over time, we used to worry about the difference between the volunteer role and the staff role: what do volunteers do, what do staff do? Over time, with policies and procedures and creating a structured program and enhancements over the years, that doesn’t become as much of a worry. But I was really looking at: what is the role between the paid staff and the volunteer coordinator, volunteer manager? What are the tasks that I want to empower them to do? And what are the tasks that really should be kept by me because of my expertise, because I’m really good at it, because I can leverage my volunteer engagement expertise in that way?

So that give‑and‑take of responsibilities. Yes, I want staff to help me and help volunteers. I also need to be aware of where does my expertise really shine and make sure I don’t give up too much of that because it’s a powerful thing. I’m really good at recruiting, about using my volunteer management software to do targeted recruiting. Our staff cannot do that at the same level that I can. That’s OK. What can they do to support these initiatives?

I think that has really changed over time because earlier in my career, I did not see myself as that expert yet. I didn’t have my CVA. I wasn’t asking some of these higher‑level questions when looking at problem‑solving within the organization. But now that I can, it’s really helpful to determine where their skill sets really leverage the best to keep all this momentum every day.

Tobi: Yeah, it’s a strength‑based leadership philosophy. What are we good at? And we don’t want to duplicate effort, especially in recruitment. You don’t want 50 million people out there making the same ask. So it makes sense. And I love how you’ve grown into your comfort and confidence in your skills and can coach others. Owning that space of expertise, I think that’s really important for leaders of volunteers, and it’s important for organizations to respect that expertise and lean on it and leverage it when it’s needed.

Corina: Yeah, and you know, Susan J. Ellis used to say that in her writing. And then, Tobi, you told me through all of your trainings and your blog posts that it’s OK for me to be that expert and to continue to pursue excellence. Then I can route other people to this knowledge so they feel the same way.

When I get phone calls from nonprofits or from other organizations saying, “Hey, Corina, can you come and speak to our staff?” I’m thinking, “Don’t you have a volunteer coordinator? That should be the person that can speak to your staff.” I’m happy to chat with them a little bit, but really I’d love to see that transition for others to be able to see their talents and effectively engage them in their work.

Tobi: Yeah, I feel like sometimes folks are waiting for someone to give you permission to own it; to own your role. I remember early on in my own career when I started Volunteer Pro in my business. The more you know, you start thinking about your personal brand and what you want to give to the world. The more you are yourself, the more powerful you are. We can inhabit and own that leader‑of‑volunteers role by being more of who we are. We’re more powerful when we are who we are.

I was just talking with a mastermind group I’m part of this morning about owning your power. Being direct, if you’re known as being direct, just be direct. That’s something I’m known for. So it’s interesting to see how you’ve evolved into your role and into your profession.

Why do you think nowadays, we talked about why volunteerism is important nowadays, what about volunteer‑staff relations? Why do you think it’s essential right now to focus on this? Leaders and volunteers and organizations have so many different balls in the air, plates they’re tossing in the air and hoping they don’t fall. They’re wearing many hats. They’re doing all these things, and they’re like, “Corina, really? I’m going to do one more thing?” Why is this really essential? I mean, I believe it is essential, so I’m just going to put that out there, spoiler alert, Corina and I both think this is essential. But Corina, why do you think it’s essential?

Corina: Yes. It’s definitely essential. We’re pairing these dynamic workforces together, our paid and unpaid workforce. That’s a challenge. It takes supervision and skill. It takes all the things that make us CVAs in real time. But we’re also selling service to both sides, and they have to get along for the recipients of service — for the clients, the people that are benefiting from all of this work to move our mission forward.

We have to understand that there’s a lot of fear that comes with working with new communities, new folks. Our paid staff might say, “I can’t fire a volunteer. I can’t reprimand a volunteer and say they made a mistake. I’m embarrassed. I don’t know how I would say this to a volunteer.” Those conversations have to come from a place of honesty and sometimes vulnerability. But we have to have those conversations, and we really need people to work together.

Our volunteer communities, there are advocates in the rooms that we are not in. They’re in communities we have not touched. They are our voice to bust those myths about nonprofits, about the work that we do. And to our staff, they have to see this dynamic unpaid workforce for what it is: people that care about what they’re doing at work. Sometimes we go home to people that don’t really understand what we do at work or don’t say that they care about what we do at work. There are thousands of volunteers that care what we do at work. That can be really powerful if we can frame it and talk to staff about who these folks are; they’re not just filling out an application to come in and do something random. They’re applying to help us in our jobs.

Tobi: And can also grow into their love, like you did in your career as a teenager. You didn’t know about senior services and what the whole network was about. You grew into a love for this cause. You might have started because of community service requirements or service learning or just because volunteerism was part of what your family did. I’m sure you didn’t, as a young person, go, “Hmm, let’s see what are the different causes out there and which one will be the best match for my…” When we’re young, we don’t know. We’re just like, “That sounds fun. I’ll give it a try.”

Corina: I went to my volunteer center website. I made a profile, and I started looking: who’s the volunteer center highlighting? Will they call me back? Do they allow teens? That was my little hub. I went there for community to find my next volunteer opportunity.

Tobi: And then discovered this wonderful world of older adults and working with older adults.

It’s such a subtle but important point you’re making that there are a lot of people in our lives that don’t understand the work we do when we work in nonprofits. I remember when I worked with unhoused youth, people would say, “Well, what do you do?” I go, “Well, I started and run an employment and training program for homeless youth. We do education, GED prep, get folks into city college, help kids get jobs, help them in transitional living, help kids get off the street and make it happen.” And they’re like, “Oh, that sounds so hard. Oh, I’m so sorry.” They would have this pitying look on their face. I’m like, “What are you talking about? I’m helping kids get off the street. Yes, it’s hard. Yes, there’s sometimes secondary PTSD you’re experiencing as a staffer. There’s added stress. You’re seeing kids at their lowest time in their life, and you’re helping young people. We had to mete out consequences sometimes where kids couldn’t get services because they weren’t following through on things. That’s not easy.”

To have it be pitiful; I was like, “No, that’s not what I do at all. I help kids get off the street and have a life. Where’s the pity in that?” I had friends who also worked in nonprofits, but I had other friends who didn’t, and they had no clue.

Yet our volunteers totally understand because often they’re side‑by‑side, shoulder‑by‑shoulder right on the front lines. Now, whether you run a direct service organization or you’re an arts and culture or advocacy organization, it doesn’t have to be direct service; they care about whatever you’re doing, whether it’s a day on the hill to talk about a specific policy, or the love of ballet and all that goes on behind the scenes to make this beautiful performance happen. That’s such an important thing for staff to remember: that people understand how important this is, what you’re doing.

Corin: Yeah. And in the training in the Impact Lab (which is available for recording; if you go into the Impact Lab, you can check out my training; it’ll be there all year), I talked about matching the motivators. The motivators of our staff our staff have motivators for why they applied for that role and why they’re taking on a project or initiative. And we have volunteers with similar motivators. We can do some matchmaking if there is an issue or if there’s a mismatch, something’s not working. Go back to what brought not only the staff member to the organization, but our volunteers to this program. How can we maybe put them together in a different way to match those underlying motivators so they can see these things in real time?

Tobi: Yeah, I love that conversation inside your seminar. Let’s take a quick break from our chat with Corina Sadler on how to improve volunteer‑staff relations. When we get back, we’ll talk a little bit more about some advice from Corina, as well as how you can get your hands on that training. So we’ll be right back. Don’t go anywhere.

Tobi: Okay, we’re back to our discussion with Corina Sadler on how to improve volunteer‑staff relations. This has been such a great conversation, Corina. I’m having fun. I’m really excited about this. We often take this as problematic. What I like about this, volunteer‑staff conflict, relations, I think what immediately comes to mind is problematic: people are resistant to taking volunteers, people don’t speak well about volunteers, they treat volunteers as second‑class citizens. Yes, those things are true in some cases.

But I think we’ve been talking from a more aspirational point of view, talking about what’s possible, talking about what already exists. Sometimes it’s about awareness on both sides. Similarly, staff may be doing things that we may see as harmful to volunteers, and volunteers may be doing things that feel harmful to staff, like, “Hey, they’re not following through with me,” or “Hey, they’re here to take my job,” which is crazy because they’re not. I don’t know anybody who volunteers who wants to work full‑time at this organization. I mean, sometimes they get hired, but that’s not really the thing.

We’ve talked a lot about this aspirational view. When you think about improving volunteer‑staff relations, can you share an example, either from your own work or your work with a client, a partner, a partner department in your organization or in your municipality, where a slight change may have led to a significant impact?

Corina: I think talking about what makes any of these situations uncomfortable, doing coaching with staff to say, “Hey, I’m a resource to you.” I tell staff that a lot: “I’m a resource to you. Come and let’s talk. Yes, I love volunteers, but I am also walking the line that I’m a paid staff member as well. So I am on their side, too.”

Offering coaching calls, kind of like you do in the Impact Lab, but internally with my team, to say, “I’m happy to talk with you about it.” And even practicing the phrases that we can say out loud to each other. Don’t make them feel silly, but, “This is what I would say.” Then I say something, and they’re like, “Well, okay, I could say this.” Even the positive things, how to recognize and appreciate a volunteer. It’s not everyone’s comfortable giving kudos. “How do I make this feel authentic? I’m not a cheerleader type person, Corina, but I think I need to give kudos or show some appreciation.”

And then in the tough times, “Let’s just talk. Tell me what happened. Okay, here’s some things I probably would have said in that moment, but what happened happened and we can move on from here.” I think treating it a little bit like coaching is helpful for staff to feel like, “Okay, I can be comfortable talking about this. Corina knows I don’t have all the answers and I’m not a pro at this, but I want to try.”

Tobi: Yeah, love that, becoming that internal coach where people can safely come to you. I think they won’t tell you if they don’t feel safe coming to you. People will just keep it to themselves, and you’ll see the…

Corina: It’s a constant reminding them and telling them, or catching a wind of something and saying, “Hey, I wanted to follow up. I noticed that you said just a little bit of this earlier. Can we talk?” Then next time, give me a call. It’s a constant reminder.

Tobi: Yeah. Not shaming people. There’s a lot of blaming and shaming sometimes inside organizations. If you can erase that from the equation, you can have better relationships.

For someone who knows that their organization needs to improve in this area, whether they’re an executive director (we have executive directors that listen to the pod and C‑suite folks) or leaders of volunteers (lots of leaders of volunteers), if anyone feels overwhelmed (maybe they’re leading a very small nonprofit and wearing all the hats, or they work in a volunteer services department and they’re the one that everybody looks to to come up with answers around this),  improving volunteer‑staff relations: what are some next steps or quick wins? What should people do if they’re like, “I don’t know, I feel overwhelmed. This is a lot”?

Corina: That’s a great question. Especially departments of one or the people wearing many hats. I definitely feel that. I train with those volunteer coordinators. You cannot tackle everything at once. So where’s the biggest rub, or the top two rubs that are just a sticky point; you have lost volunteers, or your relationships with the staff member have really changed? I would approach those first, the ones that have really had impact.

Now, we have volunteers and staff that have a bad day, their personality is just different. But the things that are creating an issue longer‑term, the next day it’s still the problem. Now someone’s not calling you anymore. The volunteer isn’t signing up anymore. I think those kinds of things we need to stop and evaluate: what has happened and what didn’t happen? Do some fact finding, investigate, get all the facts together, and then make a plan. What is this issue? Sometimes it’s communication, sometimes it’s hurt feelings, a conversation to make the volunteer or staff member feel heard and understood, and then it’s refreshed and everything is good.

Other times, it’s really looking at where did this start? It might predate you. You could be newer in this role and have no idea the foundation that was laid for some of this to continue. But having all of that information and being able to say, “We have to make change, and here’s the impact it will have,” is really helpful. Doing the fact finding and getting people to be honest, it takes some practice to be able to talk with others to really get to the root of what’s going on.

So tackle one rub that’s been going on. Get all the information together. As people give you details, sometimes it’s therapeutic for them to say, “Wow, no one’s ever noticed that I no longer volunteer on Wednesdays anymore. I really appreciate you reaching out to find out why.”

Tobi: Absolutely. I think I’ve been guilty of that. We all have been raised in different ways to manage conflict. The way our families managed conflict, sometimes it’s brushing under the rug. Sometimes it’s “I’m going to give you the silent treatment”, which volunteers not showing up anymore is the silent treatment. Or for some people, it’s blowing into a rage. There are different ways people manage conflict.

I think especially for the quiet quitters and the silent types, reaching out that someone actually noticed is interesting because they’re not going to tell you most of the time. Yes, we do exit interviews, pulse checks, surveys, all of that. But most of the time, I feel, because volunteerism is not socially acceptable to necessarily complain about your volunteering, volunteering is supposed to be, quote‑unquote, inherently good (which we could debate whether or not that’s true), volunteers feel like, “Well, it’s not my place.”

But I’ve worked with volunteers who’ve told me in my face that something’s wrong, and I love those folks because I’m like, “Great, awesome.” And it’s usually somebody with a management background, and they’re like, “I see it.” I’m like, “Great, let’s get you on a committee working on improvement. Let’s leverage that insight.”

I like to, when people bring stuff up, lean in and say, “Tell me more. I want to understand it.” But I do think that we’re not all assertive communicators. For some of us, we’re not assertive because something happened in our life where being assertive was not safe. Maybe a gender role that we feel we shouldn’t be saying things or demanding a certain kind of treatment. It could be bias, internalized oppression. There are so many different reasons why someone might not want to speak up.

It’s almost like, I’m not even going to bet, I’m going to say it is one of your superpowers; you have antennae, a level of emotional intelligence to go, “I just heard that person say three words, and I can tell you right now there’s something going on, and I’m going to go over at the end of this meeting and say, ‘Hey…’” So we need to be really good at feeling the room, seeing dynamics in action, because in this case, people just aren’t going to say anything, especially on the volunteer side.

Corina: Yeah, we have to remember those things and follow up and ask questions. And it is scary. But the more we tell staff, “We’ve got to call this volunteer. We need to have a meeting. We need to resolve this”, to be that leader in that uncomfortable space to say, “This is how we’re going to move forward. And also, how did we get here? How did we get to this point?” And the same with staff.

If the staff are not communicating to us that things are happening to them via volunteers, then we have no idea. I’ve had several calls where I tell someone, “This is the first time I’m hearing of this. Tell me more. Okay.” Then it all starts to come together because sometimes the squeakiest wheel is not what is unraveling. Other things can be unraveling below that we don’t hear about until a little bit later.

Tobi: Yeah. Aside from people’s dynamics when it comes to conflict and whether or not they feel courageous in the moment or maybe they don’t feel so brave — are there other things that get in the way of volunteers and staff resolving conflict amongst each other?

Corina: Sometimes taking things very personally. I coach myself and I say phrases out loud as I prepare for a discussion or where I want something to go. I’m thinking, “It’s not about me, it’s about them, or it’s about the community we’re serving, or it’s about this event being successful. It’s not about me.” That is hard for some folks to do; to take themselves out of it, especially if there is a conflict that has begun to get very personal. That can be a challenge to work through.

I’ve had some mediation training. I think all volunteer managers should take some of that to help people navigate. Because when we’re bringing in so many different personalities together, ages, motivations, these things are going to happen, and we have to be that leader.

Tobi: Yeah. I love that. Figuring out where people are coming from, being able to mediate. It’s so interesting why people might not step up. For our own self, feeling like they can speak honestly. Sometimes people don’t even know why they’re hurt. When you think about volunteerism, when people are really passionate about a cause, it’s part of their identity. I think the people who are the most connected to their volunteering are animal welfare folks. It is part of their identity. They are bringing kitties and puppies home to care for them in their own homes. The public and private are very closely knit in that type of volunteering. People do take it personally.

But if you, as the mediator, can help move that personal attachment to attachment to the cause, help them see a different perspective: “Yes, we all take this personally because we all care about this cause.” If you can just help people shift their perspective just slightly, they can kind of take it out of the “it’s all about me and my ego” space. We want to get people out of the ego space because it’s not going to help. We have to be able to give up some of our ego to sometimes find a middle ground with folks we’re in conflict with. So I love that idea.

Corina: We’ve got to hit them with the facts. We’ve got to hit them with the facts. Record keeping — we have data that we can lean on, and we can dispel some things. Sometimes we think, “My gosh, are they right? Is this true about my program, my organization, or me?” Let’s pull the data. Let’s see what that says. I love doing that. Then I can say, “Wow, we actually don’t have…”

Tobi: Do you ever bring people together, bring staff and volunteers together in a room to stop the “he said, she said”? Have you ever done that? Do you do that regularly?

Corina: Yes. Yes. No, thankfully not regularly. A lot of things can be handled over the phone, but in‑person meetings is my first thing. Let’s put it out on the table. Let’s talk. I want to hear from both sides, because obviously there’s something deeply going on. I want to discover what that is. I’m also acting as a professional for my organization, whether I have a program manager hat or a volunteer manager hat, we have a responsibility to our community to respond in a certain way. I also have a responsibility to our staff to respond on their behalf as the representative of volunteering, and then to the volunteers. We’re that referee right there. We want the best for everybody, but we also need to live in the reality of facts and what’s true.

Tobi: Yeah. During your training, it was so great where you talked a lot about fact‑finding as step one before a solution. I think when we’re tasked with refereeing, as you say, we think we’re the ones to come up with the solution. We don’t necessarily need to come up with the solution. We need to create the safe space for folks to talk it out and get to hugging it out at some point. That doesn’t mean we come up with a solution. Often the people who are in conflict are the best ones to come up with their solution.

If you were to give people one piece of advice on a mindset shift, as the person who is often the middle person, the one stuck in the middle, the referee, the one who has to balance all of these different competing stakeholders and perspectives, what’s one mindset shift or one important mindset you think is important for people in that role?

Corina: I would say think of the long game. We’re in it for the long game. Not returning the voicemail, not calling people back, not scheduling the meeting, not pulling someone aside- that’s going to hurt the long game of where we want the volunteer programs to go and also how we want to be perceived by volunteers and staff as that resource, as that trusted coach. If we don’t take action, it does not bode well for the future.

So we have to think: if we keep building in this way, what will happen? Get some training, read Tobi’s blog, come into the Impact Pro Community, ask questions, get prepared. But think of the long game and where you want to grow, because there will be conflict along the way. There will be staff and volunteer relationship issues. And then there will be things to celebrate, amazing stories of collaboration and great success. But look further down the road before deciding not to take action.

Tobi: Yeah. I’ll mention too that for more tips on improving your organization’s culture with support from leadership, let’s say you’re trying to think about how you can tackle some of these issues and you want the backing of leadership, check out Volunteer Nation episode 191, where I talk about who is ultimately responsible for your volunteer culture. It may surprise you, and you may feel a little more empowered to go speak to your leadership because, spoiler alert, it’s not your responsibility. You’re not ultimately accountable for your organization’s culture, whether it’s your team culture around staff, your team culture around volunteers, or your team culture around volunteer‑staff relations. It’s actually your executive who is. That is their job: the culture of your organization.

Now, you have responsibility for nurturing it, for helping on the ground level with managing conflict and making sure the program is running smoothly. But you need the support and buy‑in of that leadership. You should not feel like you’re doing this all alone. If you do, then some things gotta change. That may be the first conversation you have with your supervisor: “Hey, I can’t be in this alone. I’m just one person.”

But I also totally agree with you, Corina. You’ve got to lift up that carpet and stop sweeping stuff under. There is stuff there that you need to not sweep under there anymore because people notice. I’m sure you’ve had to dismiss a volunteer before, I have, and it’s the worst thing ever that you have to do. On the other hand, there are rules, things that have to go a certain way, certain things that are cause for immediate dismissal, progressive discipline, game over. It’s not a fun thing to do.

But then people will come up to you, kind of sidle up to you and say quietly, “I’m so glad you did that.” Or if you call something out or try to improve something, “Thank you so much.” People are noticing. When we sweep things under the carpet, it’s only under the carpet for us. It’s in everybody else’s plain view.

Corina: Yeah. Staff are at your organization 40 hours a week. They’re seeing a lot of other things that maybe your volunteers aren’t noticing. But when your volunteers are only there two hours, four hours, six hours, eight hours a week, and they’re seeing this constant issue, that’s all they’re seeing in their shift. I’m glad they take notice when things have improved and hopefully give feedback. But if things are swept under the rug, it’s pretty evident because of the amount of time that they’re actually with us.

Tobi: Yeah, absolutely. Folks don’t want to be where there’s bad blood or bad vibes. They’re spending their leisure time; it needs to be fun and joyful.

Well, Corina, this has been really great. We’ve talked a lot about different perspectives, and you’ve talked about what you’ve taught in your course seminar. Corina, we mentioned your seminar; I’ll shout it out here. It’s called “Starting Fresh with Staff and Volunteer Relations.” It was recorded and posted right now inside the community. It’s got a great start guide to help you transition and implement your learning into real practice. You can be inside the community asking questions and getting advice from folks, including Corina, on your challenges with staff and volunteer relations.

If you’re ready to go beyond ideas and start building a strategy that really works, both in this regard and in your organization as a whole, check us out inside the Volunteer Pro Impact Lab. Corina is just one of six fantastic guest advisors we’ve brought on offering their expertise. We are so excited; we’re just getting started. We’ve got lots of training planned for the rest of the year. Join us on the inside. It’s great for intermediate to advanced leaders of volunteers and people working in organizations that want to improve their volunteer programs.

If you want something more fundamental, check out our Volunteer Management Fundamentals course. That’s great for people in super small organizations and just starting out who want a really good foundation. Join us on the inside. We have amazing people like Corina who are really excited about helping you thrive.

Corina, any last bits of advice for folks? And then I’ll ask you our final question.

Corina: I just want to say thank you for making it to the end of this episode. You are a rock star to be thinking about staff and volunteer relations, to be turning to the Volunteer Nation podcast for thoughts, ideas, inspiration. Keep listening, go back, check out some other episodes. Any amount of time that you are spending on this as a busy professional wearing many hats with a limited amount of time, you’re only one person; I give you kudos for making time. Jot down those ideas, those things that you’re thinking about on your walk or on your commute, that you can do to help staff and volunteer relations.

Get on that professional development ticket. Get in front of new employee orientation. Anything that you can do. Start an employee‑only newsletter with volunteer management tips, something we talked about in our training inside the community. Anything that you have capacity for. One thing: I encourage you to get started, and I don’t think that you’ll regret it.

Tobi: Yeah, absolutely not. If you think about it, if you are purposeful about how you approach volunteer‑staff relations, and inside the seminar we talk a lot about what that looks like, think about the difference it would make in your time spent putting out fires and managing conflict. If you’ve set the stage for awesome teamwork, the need for all of that mostly goes away because people manage conflict at their own level. They don’t need to come to you. So it is a great investment of your time to create a place where people can row together. It’s just more efficient in the long run.

Corina has given us great advice today. Everybody, I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Volunteer Nation podcast. I want to ask Corina one final question that I ask all of our guests: What are you most excited about in the year ahead?

Corina: I’m really excited to keep volunteering. I serve with several professional organizations like Council for Certification in Volunteer Administration (CVA). I’m also a live volunteer and mentor, and I help out with Engage Journal, where Tobi has an article talking about the Volunteer Management Progress Report. So make sure you go to engagejournal.org and look for Tobi’s article. I love to serve the sector, so I’m really excited to continue in those roles.

Tobi: Yeah, and I’m going to put a link to the Engage Journal. I actually do have an article; well, I didn’t write the article, but I was interviewed for it, and it’s about our 10 years of the Volunteer Management Progress Report: how we did it, what we did. Is it all over? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe we’ll do another one; we don’t know. But it was a fun kind of retrospective. If you’re interested in doing your own research, it’s a great primer on how to do industry research, because we’ve been doing it for a decade. It’s hard to believe it’s been that long.

Well, thanks, everybody, for joining us. I hope you’ve enjoyed this episode. If you know somebody who’s tackling this topic, go ahead and share this episode with them. If you liked it, give us a rating and review. We like five‑star ratings because it ensures that more people see us. We’re in the game of helping people. The more people listen to the pod, the more people are going to get help. Join us next week, same time, same place on the Volunteer Nation. Take care, everybody.